Monday, August 12, 2013

Continued Conversation with Krimhilde, An Eckankar Adept

This continues the conversation I had at the end of April with my sister-in-law, Krimhilde, on spiritual aspects of Eckankar and related issues:

Q. You just returned from the Worldwide Eckankar Seminar in Minneapolis. What was that all about,  briefly summarized?

A. That was similar to the one you attended - I know, out of curiosity- in 1998, and we learned new and more ways to make God an everyday reality in our lives. That is the primary purpose of Eckankar by the way, and the name itself means partnership with God. The seminar also signals the spiritual harvest in a given year's cycle, making spirituality more abundant in our world and available to all.

Q. Many extreme rightist Christians accuse you all of worshipping Harold Klemp, designated the  "living Eck Master". Can you elaborate on that aspect and why they are wrong?

A. (Laughs). This just shows the level of ignorance! Sri Harold Klemp is who we in Eckankar call the Mahanta, the living Eck Master.  In Eckankar there is always a living Eck Master, to whom we give our respect but never worship. That is reserved for the one God. The purpose of a living Eck Master like Harold Klemp is to assist all spiritual apprentices to gain valuable experience in the light and sound manifested by the true God. This leads to spiritual self-confidence.

Q. Who were some of the other Eck Masters?

A. They include the founder of Eckankar, Paul Twitchell, and others including: Fubbi Quantz, the guardian of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad at the Katsupari Monastery in northern Tibet; Gopal Das, who teaches at the Temple of Golden Wisdom on the Astral Plane; Lai Tsi, who is  the guardian of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad on the Saguna Lok, the Etheric Plane; and Yaubl Sacabi, the Living ECK Master among the Mycenaeans in ancient Greece. Others can be found with their photo images at the Eckankar dot org website..

Q. Where does Jesus Christ fit into this picture?

A. This is easy! Jesus was a messenger of God who served and still serves,  as the spiritual guide for Christians. This is no different to how many special men - either as spiritual teachers or designated saints - have done for other groups throughout time. For example,   Paul Twitchell's book Stranger By the River includes passages that speak with beauty and inspiration about the message of love that Jesus brought. We respect Jesus as such a messenger but we do not worship him and he himself would have advised that he not be worshipped.  He was one expression of God but not the only one. In the same way, the Dalai Lamas have been such messengers for the Buddhists, and Mohammed was such for the Muslims. None of these are to be worshipped, but treated as messengers.

Q. But certain Christians of the extreme type would argue that if you don't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior you can't enter heaven. How do you respond?

A.Heaven is in the here and now. We make heaven where we are by expressing love in its highest form. Anyone who would impose or say that one is doomed, or damned because he doesn't believe such and such, cannot be expressing any love. Therefore, his god is already false. It is fiction. A real God - the one of Love  - doesn't send people to any hell for anything. This is what the ignorant do not grasp.

Q. But they would say they are still "saved" because they've accepted Christ as their Savior. They'd say you are in the wrong!

A. Let them say what they will!  It is obvious that if one has so much hate that he believes others - who don't believe as he does- must be sent to hell, then there must be a contradiction. One cannot have love and hate existing in the same Being, and to have a God that would send humans to hell for their beliefs is not a God that loves. It is a fiction that hates. I say it is a fiction because these people created it in their own minds.  If it were true that the God they worship is one of love THEY themselves would show such love in their lives, not with words but actions! They would feed the homeless and clothe them, they would donate their time selflessly to those with less than they have, instead of wallowing in their own self pity and hate.  You can always tell what type of thing a person worships by how he behaves, how he acts. He can say all he wants his God is real, real love or whatnot, but if he himself doesn't show that love it is a fraud.

Q. Well said. Why is it certain Christians, like fundamentalists and so on, get so worked up about Hell, Satan and damnation? It’s like that’s the only note they know how to sound.

A. That’s because their psychic or mental vibrations are operating at so low a frequency that only horrid, nasty things can be conceived of. “Satan” is the product of low vibrations and low mentality. Also, I could say, a brutal and inhuman mentality. Satan is inhuman, no? Thus, the mind that conceives him must likewise be inhuman and hateful. It cannot be one of love.  No higher spiritual person could conceive of such a being. It would be like an exalted master or saint thinking of ways to murder or rape. It’s outside their nature, and therefore impossible. Only a human very close to a bestial nature or disposition could be such a Satanist!

Q. A Satanist?

A. Yes! Obviously, if you believe in Satan and that he has as much power in the world, as many of these people claim, you must be a Satanist! You don't have to actually physically worship Satan to be such - just to hold him in your mind and use him as a cudgel against others!

Q. I want to get to the musical or sound called HU which figures prominently in Eckankar. Can you explain a bit about it?

A. HU is our love song to God. It is perhaps the most beautiful sound a human can make in the universe. The higher one goes on the spiritual frequency scale, the higher ordered one’s thoughts become and the closer one gets to the Godhood. By studying Eckankar we learn to know and use those special words (like “HU”) which interject the highest light and sound frequencies into our meditations, and positive purpose into our lives. This is what enables our rapid spiritual growth.

(Readers can find an example of HU sounded here: )

Q. So in terms of the afterlife, you don't accept heaven or hell?

A. NO. Absolutely not!  I believe and accept reincarnation.Think of it! How crazy it is to have only one life to live, and one where you may be born with severe mental illness or from a terrible family or with infirmities, then be expected to reach heaven in that one life. It is insane! For example, if you are a backward peasant living in China and have never heard of Jesus does that mean you must go to Hell? No. That is stupid. It isn’t the fault of the Chinese peasant, as he has no control on where he’s born. The only justice system that makes sense therefore is karma (as you sow, so shall you reap) and reincarnation is part of it.

Q. So let me get this clear. Say I am a self-professed 'saved' Christian but display lots of hate toward many groups, including Muslims, Catholics, atheists, others,  then in my next incarnation I can expect a not so good life?

A. Yes! By the principles of karma you will then be born as one of those people you hated in this life, as a Muslim, a Catholic or even an atheist! You will then have to likely suffer the attacks doled out by the prejudiced that you dole out to them now, by word or deed. It is a way of balance. And until you learn the lesson to accept all people, irrespective of beliefs, you cannot progress!

Q. What about the Bible as a book of proclaimed truth?

A. As I've said before, those books were written by low vibration people living thousands of years ago, for other low vibration people. We are living in a more enlightened era where we know more. This means our more developed minds need more sophisticated sources. Reading those ancient books or bibles is like a college student groveling around in a nursery and still talking baby talk. Worse, the degraded level of the book writers, especially where they depict this “god” killing humans out of vengeance, is a reflection of their own base nature and desire for vengeance. Their degraded, low vibration souls hate so they write to make their god hate, like them. This bible god is no god of love.

The obsession with the 'good book' is based  on the anxiety to be right…..right, right, right….This impulse and need penetrates and suffuses everything. That’s why they clutch their bibles so closely, as if to worship the book itself. I believe they’d all have heart attacks if all their good books suddenly disappeared overnight. They wouldn’t know how to live, and their precious compass for living would be gone.



Agape999 said...

I'm always bemused by folk who criticize the Bible when it is patently obvious that they have not read it!! Please read Genesis 3:5 for the origin of the "God Realisation" story if you have any doubts, then read the whole book!! Then, perhaps you can comment from understanding and not from supposition!!!!

Copernicus said...

Please! I studied the Bible as part of a biblical exegesis course at Loyola University in the 1960s. Anyone who seriously has studied it KNOWS Genesis - and indeed most of the Bible, is purely mythical, not factual. (I.e. no serious person really accepts the Noah fable of living 3 days in the belly of a whale)

Krimhilde has also studied it, and had to as a Catholic school girl growing up in Germany (1940s)

The error made by the biblical literalist is assuming:

[Text x] -> [Text x]

In other words, what was written 2,000 or so years ago has arrived fully vetted in the book - no errors of translation, or deliberate clattering text, or copyist errors.

More plausibly then:

[text x] -> [text x1] ->[text x2] –[text x3] -> [Text Y]

with each iteration signifying change in text, and errors.

Literalist bible quoters, especially of the KJV, also lose track of biblical history or never learned it in the first place.

For example, few are aware that What eventually became the "King James Bible" by 1526-30 was in fact NOT the original, but rather 75% to 90% adopted from William Tyndale's English New Testament, published in 1526. This version was actually published in defiance of then English law - so it is amazing so much of it was then incorporated into the original KJV.

Tyndale's putative objectives included: the translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew, and the New Testament from Greek. These were separately undertaken and respectively assembled by no less than 47 translators in 6 committees working in London, Oxford and Cambridge.

The final results emerged seven years later, in 1611.(The exact date when the first edition emerged is uncertain but many celebrate the anniversary on May 2nd).

As Prof. Bart Ehrman has pointed out:

“The King James was not given by God but was a translation by a group of scholars in the early seventeenth century who based their rendition on a faulty Greek text. Later translators based their translations on Greek texts that were better…but not perfect”

Copernicus said...

Re: Gen. 3:5 (KJV)

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Since you have not elaborated on it, I've no idea what exact point you are trying to make. Are you trying to say that people like Krimhilde (and presumably me too) are advised to stay clear of expanding our knowledge too much - lest we be led astray?

Or what?

Again, I have read the whole book (many times as we did at Loyola in exegesis) and it's abundantly clear it's mythological. NO one can seriously take its assorted passages as literal truths!

For example, in Gen.1: 1-5 it's clear that the “light” referred to in the last three sentences is none other than the SUN. However, it is clear from reading each line through that the Earth was supposedly made BEFORE the Sun. (E.g. Earth without form, darkness upon face of the deep).

However, this is physically impossible. We know from modern astrophysics that the solar proto-nebula had to collapse first to yield the SUN. (No planets, since they had yet to spin off the collapsing nebular cloud – it hadn’t cooled enough to allow it). As the proto-solar nebula collapsed it also began spinning and gained angular momentum. This angular momentum was then transferred to regions of the nebula that cooled and separated from the whole, and these regions became separate clouds of dust and gas that aggregated into the planets.

Under a combination of electrostatic attraction (between larger charged particles) and gravity (attracting the whole mass from the center of the cloud) each planet was formed as what we call a “planetesimal”.

As more angular momentum was transferred – the planetesimal’s (each one) acquired their own spin (in a period of revolution) and specific shapes. The giant planets (e.g. Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus) garnered more spin momentum than the more dense, terrestrial planets. Thus Jupiter’s planetesimal ended up as an oblate spheroid with diameter of about 88,000 mile and rotating rapidly with a day of ~ 10 hours. Earth meanwhile ended up as a relatively spherical orb with diameter of ~ 8,000 miles and day approaching approach 24 hrs. Mars ended up in a similar shape to that of Earth and a diameter of 4200 miles and day ~ 24 hours.

Thus, the Earth spun off about 1.1 billion years after the solar nebula fully collapsed, and it could not have come BEFORE the Sun. Indeed, the absence of the pivoting central mass of the Sun, or ~ 2 x 10 ^30 kilograms, would have meant the Earth- with no Sun present- would instantly have been hurled into a direction toward the constellation Hercules at 12 miles per second with no central mass to keep it in check. We can compute this exactly using the basic principles of celestial mechanics.

It is clear from this that Gen.1:1-5 has stated a patent impossibility which violates all known laws of physics and dynamics and is therefore WRONG! It is clear from this that the Bible must be in error, certainly in this one passage – and if here then likely in many other places too.

Copernicus said...

Then there is the claim that Isaiah 40:22 predicts a spherical Earth because it says “round Earth”, e.g.

“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth..."

not so! Roundness (circularity) and sphericity are two different properties. One (circularity) applies to a simple two dimensional surface or geometry. Indeed, the property of circles was investigated by Sumerian and Egyptian mathematicians long before any of the biblical authors emerged from their caves.

As I pointed out also in an earlier blog, the particular property of sphericity can only be determined by the use of mathematics. Without mathematics, people would believe the Earth is a round, flat space. How so? If one looks across a vast, flat horizon – either from the middle of a desert or the ocean- the perspective one obtains is that of a vast FLAT expanse with a circular boundary at the far periphery. Thus, the impression created in an ancient mind – without use of discriminating mathematics- would be that he or she inhabits the center of an enormous flat circle!

How did the ancient Greek astronomers (e.g. Eratosthenes) break out of this and arrive at sphericity? In Eratosthenes’ case, around 240 B.C., he had to first decide what exactly he had to measure to assess sphericity as opposed to circularity. This is where a key assumption entered: that the Earth was spherical and the Sun distant enough that its rays at Earth were essentially parallel.

Eratosthenes thereby performed a measurement of the angle of elevation of the Sun at noon at Alexandria, and at Syene. This value could then be used to obtain Earth’s circumference, at 250,000 stadia or about 24,900 miles. The repeat of the experiment from thousands of different directions, orientations, shows sphericity not just circularity. Why? Because if Eratasothenes (or any of his thousands or millions of followers – who repeat the experiment even today at assorted universities) were measuring a circle, they’d have to be on the circle’s EDGE to obtain its circumference .

Cut out a circle from cardboard and examine it. Any distance on the circle itself would be a chord, not a circumference. One would have to stand or situate exactly ON THE EDGE to get the circumference.

No untrained, non-mathematical ancient mind would remotely contemplate this, because to him one would “fall off” at the edge. (Gravitational physics would need another 2500 years to be developed by Galileo and Newton)

Thus, the very act of measuring a circumference using a shadow angle (and trigonometry) on any part or place of Earth implicitly presumes its sphericity , since the extension of all such measuring lines leads to a circle that can be oriented around any direction across Earth. What then is the sphere?

Technically – as we see from calculus, it is the integration of an infinite number of conic sections that are each circles – which results in a sphere .

Thus one cannot assert or claim that biblical quotes such as Isaiah 40:22 – referring to a circle- actually imply a sphere. NO, they don’t. People read into those quotes what they want. They so much NEED the quotation to be accurate – to prove their spurious “divine inspiration” that they will torture and twist the meaning to make it so.

Bottom line: Read the bible as an inspiring book if you will, but don't take it literally!

Copernicus said...

Note: Unless you can deal properly with the above issues, no further comments will be published!

Agape999 said...

Ok. The point I was attempting to put across is this: The notion of "God Realisation" or having one's eyes opened to be like God/s isn't new. It appears to have a Biblical origin! If you will, lets examine this in more detail as described in Genesis 3"5. The serpent told Eve what she would experience personally if she ate from the tree. So the story goes, Eve ate some of the apple. As did Adam. So what happened? Did Eve experience as was promised-was her eyes opened and she became like God/s? Apparently not. Did this occur for Adam? Did both of them live forever? It seems not. Why? On face value, this promise appears to be a deception! The point I'm making here is, the promise of this state known as "God Realisation" is an ancient one-a promise so far not yet proven...! Before you assume I know nothing of eckankar and am just another nutter, let me inform you that I'm a former active member of this group for 18+ years and was both a Chiad and Arahata. I began wondering what was amiss with this teaching after witnessing several H.I.'s verbally threatening a chela with physical violence, who questioned the origins of eckankar. When I spoke out against this behaviour, these same H.I.'s targeted me also! I wondered at the time where was the High Spiritual Standard I had come to believe in? If this teaching is the highest on Earth or on all planes, WHY the need for KAL-like behaviour?

Copernicus said...

I cross-posted this complaint to K and she observed that your experiences are plausible exceptional, i.e. not normal. She has been part of the organization for over 30 yrs. and has never encountered any such negative behavior. This is not to deny what you observed, only to say that without more than anecdotal accounts it isn't fair to tar the whole of Eck.

Re: your "God realization" theme - let us begin first by acknowledging no real "Adam and Eve" ever existed, nor did Cain and Abel, or Jonah (with his whale) or "Noah". These are all mythical figures, and hence what happened to them are mythical accounts, not real, or historical.

Hence, on the basis of mythological figures and events one cannot assert the "promise is not yet proven".

As an aside, in my latest book, 'Beyond Atheism, Beyond God' I do show how a realization of Being can be attained by the use of meditation and what I call mentation. This is backed up by the application of modern quantum mechanics, i.e. showing that ultimately all consciousness is enfolded higher dimensionally in one Being. When one attunes with that higher reality, one can achieve wondrous things.

I believe Google has put enough of it online - with free access, that you can see what I am about in that book.


Agape999 said...

I've read some of the excerpts from your book "Beyond Atheism, Beyond God" !!! Much of it goes right over my head! I do not have either a science nor mathematical background to comment properly on this subject of Quantum Mechanics! My sole knowledge of it lead me to think it is merely a theory not a provable fact. However, you are clearly more of an authority on this subject. I am more than curious about your assertion that an 'Expansion of Consciousness' can be achieved via applied principles of 'QM' and meditation. So, here are 3 questions that come to mind: (a) Is this mentation technique "provable" to lead or grant the experience termed 'Self or God Realisation'? (b) Have you as a researcher and practitioner achieved this Realisation experience for yourself? and, (c) Is this technique (mentation) an approved ECK technique?

re: 'Adam and Eve as myth' Of course, I cannot say "here are the bones of Adam and of Eve" !!
As you, my friend, cannot prove this is indeed a myth-one must go on belief-as I did in my former teaching...! Thank you..!

Copernicus said...

Your "sole knowledge" of quantum mechanics is too limited. As a proven theory, it is already well validated, including: ability to predict spectral lines for the various elements, ability to predict their energy levels, ability to predict electron diffraction, as well as - electron spin, and quantum tunelling - without which none of our electronic equipment (DVD players, HDTVs etc) would exist!

Now, as to your questions:

a)Yes mentation is provable to lead to the QUEST - not realizatio- of SELF in the world.

It can only be a quest since the world, cosmos remains in a state of evolution. Since the cosmos and world are still in a process of evolution, and are are therefore incomplete - then this must be reflected in reality.

It was the philosopher N.M Wildiers who first observed ('An Introduction to Teilhard de Chardin', 143. ):

"Whatever is yet to be completed is of necessity imperfect, defective, unfinished. Evil is thus structurally part and parcel of a world in evolution. An evolving world and a perfect world – these are mutually contradictory ideas."

Hence, full realization is not attainable until the process of evolution is completed (after all, the brains with which we're saddled still retain reptilian aspects in the R-comnplex)

But in terms of the QUEST, yes, mentation can lead to fuller focus and an enhanced consciousness to actually become part of Being

b) I am on the QUEST to ahieve unity with Being (what you call 'realization') but as I stated in (a) the full attainment is not possible in an incomplete and still evolving cosmos.

c) I have no idea of whether mentation is an 'approved Eck' technique since I am not now, nor ever have been part of Eck. I went to one conference out of curiosity in 1998, was unimpressed with what I saw ....and that, as they say, was it.

Finally, given there is no evidence for 'Adam and Eve' and hence it constitutes an extraordinary claim (along the lines of 'Nessie', the Loch Ness monster, or the Abominable Snowman) it is YOUR job to prove them to me not mine to disprove them!

The one who advances the extraordinary claim always has the onus of providing the proof!

Copernicus said...

I forgot to add that the 'half-life' for this topic has expired. No more comments published. Unless, of course, you have prima facie evidence for Adam and Eve, Jonah being in the whale, etc.

EEEEBE said...

Thank you so much for doing these interviews with K. I carefully read each one and learn much every time.

Just a comment on your discussion with K on Satan. He always gets a lot of bad press but he's not such a bad guy. He's only doing his job! There are dirty jobs here in the physical world that not too many people want to do like garbage collection, sewage cleaning, etc.. But those dirty jobs need to get done for the general good. Satan does his job very well and it's needed in the grand scheme of things. Who's to say that Satan isn't a Spiritual Master in his own right appointed by God to do that job. The fact is that most people learn more from hard times than good times. We should appreciate Satan for the conditions he creates that challenge us and allow up to leap forward spiritually.

Monica Odenwald said...

ONly humans can take these snippets of names like Satan and use them as reference sto anything real, given the fantasy bible/Christian view from this host. or Eck, given 1000 years ago (which oddly is even references as well as ECK which is now How about reading the word ECK, a main stream word since what, 1965? We are all just such experts when it comes to religion and all these terms and ideas and history. Scares me that people in Eckankar assume they know and are a voice of authority above all religions and are translators on ancient wisdom and universal teachings and God (there is that 3 letter word that is taken again from the bible instead of seeing Sugmad used) So is it Christian fantasy or do real spiritual leaders, symbols and even icons like Jesus and God and words like Satan come to us, the masses from the historic documents. But maybe its all old and fantasy and is beneath the new Eckankar teachings that Sugmad has blessed. If you are going to say these biblical texts are false and not real people, and that Eck is the newest from up high.....since 1965 is now out in the open for all to advocate for - while still use words like God or Satan to explain your teachings in any context, you confuse your reader. Why not eliminate the false lower words and ideas and people from the bible and JUST illuminate the lower mind audience we all are....with ALL of your highest words from YOUR teachings. I was raised as a child in the Eck teachings and the organizations fed me to the lions. Organized religion is just the golden calf no matter how current you think your God teachings are.... and at least I have peace of mind to alwasys speak from real life experience, not an aounce of fantasy. Eckankar is not the highest and I can give you lots of perspective when its fantasy and the bible is a more grounding choice of study for those seeking spirituality, God and the highest teachings possible. So for many it is the highest. Eckists just cant fully comprehend a the full extent of any and every persons spirituality. Only our great all present loving eternal supreme source can. This conversation is beyond conversation and the experience of growth was never meant to be picked apart with references this way where one is above or higher or lower than the other. No real teacher would teach this once again, the highest almighty views of the eckist, the supreme teachings that are so poorly represented this way on this thread, making bold statements and having insights into topics that are theory based.....are yet another religious one upmanship - that religion is so famous for. Good Luck in your entrapments..

Copernicus said...

Monica Odenwald wrote:

"Good Luck in your entrapments."

I have no "entrapments" as I am an atheist. So I subscribe to no supernatural entities, memes etc. As for Krimhilde, she found much greater spiritual insight in Eckanckar than she did in Roman Catholicism. She merely shared some of her insights at my request, and this was after my then (he's now deceased) pastor brother had photo shopped her visage into a hell scene in one of his blog posts.

"K" now is not even able to read any ECK works, given she's in the last stage of Alzheimer's. But for the time she was conscious and aware the ECK teachings provided her a guiding light for her life, whatever you and others might think now.

As this post is more than five years old, no further comments are accepted,

Copernicus said...

Correction: The blog post is less than 5 years old. But further exchanges are still terminated especially as Krimhilde is no longer able to defend herself, or Eckanckar. (And as I noted, I'm an atheist, not an Eckist.)